| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
wanted
New Contributor
Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Poland/ Lebork
|
 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: Hybrid |
 |
|
Hello.
We on the River Oder flies such kaczor the puzzles, this is probably a hybrid with other species.
What you requested, to which species you types in this mixture of male hybrid - Anas platyrhynchos (Mallard).
This bird is observed since about a year.
Sorry if not made a topic in this section.
_________________
Jacek "wanted" Zaborowski |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Resolution
Master Contributor
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1431
Location: everywhere
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: INFORMATION request |
|
|
hello! I studied the interesting photos that you sent of a wild hybrid duck.
I'm no authority on ducks but agree that the mallard must have been involved but as for the second species, I am not so certain. Can anyone else help identify this hybrid:
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/753/minidsc03310oc2.jpg
_________________
- Judge by cause, not by effect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wanted
New Contributor
Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Poland/ Lebork
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can someone write something else, express your opinion?
Maybe some of the assumptions which may be hybrid?
_________________
Jacek "wanted" Zaborowski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lonepeakpheasants
Regular Contributor
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Utah
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Take a look at the similarity between this Mallard x Mexican Mallard hybrid and the duck above.
http://www.sabo.org/photoalb/mallard.htm
The probability of this being the hybrid, given its location in Poland, seems very unlikely to me however. I'm leaning towards a domestic duck x wild mallard cross.
_________________
Member of the Clean-Slate Society Forums
http://cleanslate.editboard.com/
Jared Imbler
Lone Peak Aviary |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frank
Premium Member 08
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 1056
Location: Quebec, Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I might be wrong but they looks like the duck that for a while as been considered as a real species : The Brewer's Duck.
The Brewer's Duck origin is finally only an hybridation between Malard and Gadwall. Here's a great link to Jan Harteman's website : http://www.audubon.org/bird/BoA/F39_G4c.html
Maybe I'm wrong but that's what I think...
Thanks!
Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lonepeakpheasants
Regular Contributor
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Utah
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought the same thing at first Frank.
Here are some more pictures of Mallard x Gadwall
The shape of the head and markings are different from the Polish bird. In my opinion, this rules out Mallard x Gadwall as a possibility.
The facial markings seem to resemble a Eurasian/American Green-wing Teal, but mallard hybrids with these do not resemble the bird at all.
_________________
Member of the Clean-Slate Society Forums
http://cleanslate.editboard.com/
Jared Imbler
Lone Peak Aviary |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wanted
New Contributor
Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Poland/ Lebork
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks guys.
_________________
Jacek "wanted" Zaborowski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Hall From Michigan
Premium Member 08
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 178
Location: Billings Montana
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello.
An interesting picture. I noticed the bill is saddled like a females bill and think that it might be crossed with a spot billed duck although I don't think they range into Poland.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Hall From Michigan
Premium Member 08
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 178
Location: Billings Montana
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Another thought after a good long look is that it may just be a sexual morph with both male and female traits.
Mark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Resolution
Master Contributor
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1431
Location: everywhere
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Passed this around at the museum and one Anseriformes specialist suggested that it is likely the progeny of a backcross between Mallard X Gadwall that has bred back to Mallard. In other words, it is three quarters mallard and one quarter gadwall. I viewed some skins of such a backcross and was convinced that his assumption was probably correct.
It is fascinating how much hybridization goes on in nature between different waterfowl species and yet the species remain unique entities.
New Anseriformes species have probably been generated by the migration of mixed species stragglers on remote islands- their hybrid progeny eventually morphing into unique island endemic species.
_________________
- Judge by cause, not by effect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frank
Premium Member 08
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 1056
Location: Quebec, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
New Anseriformes species have probably been generated by the migration of mixed species stragglers on remote islands- their hybrid progeny eventually morphing into unique island endemic species. |
Any exemple?
Thanks
Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Resolution
Master Contributor
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1431
Location: everywhere
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: Hypotheticals |
|
|
I've read a few papers discussing the phylogeny and speciation where the concept is discussed for example:
| Quote: |
Genetics and Evolution
Volume 41, Issue 2, November 2006, Pages 395-404
Evolutionary history of the genus Capra (Mammalia, Arti...
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution
Evolutionary history of the genus Capra (Mammalia, Artiodactyla): Discordance between mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome phylogenies
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution, Volume 40, Issue 3, September 2006, Pages 739-749
Nathalie Pidancier, Steve Jordan, Gordon Luikart, Pierre Taberlet
Abstract
The systematics of the genus Capra remain controversial in spite of studies conducted using morphology, mtDNA, and allozymes. Here, we assess the evolutionary history of Capra (i) using phylogenetic analysis of two nuclear genes located on the Y-chromosome and (ii) previously published and new cytochrome b sequences. For the Y-chromosome phylogeny, we sequenced segments from the amelogenin (AMELY) and zinc finger (ZFY) genes from all of the eight wild taxa and from domestic goats (Capra hircus). Phylogenetic analysis of the Y-chromosome data revealed two well-defined clades. The domestic goat (C. hircus), the bezoar (Capra aegagrus), and the markhor (C. falconeri) belong to one clade (ML bootstrap value [BP]: 98%), suggesting that domestic goats originated from one or both of these wild species. The second clade (ML BP: 92%) is comprised of all the other wild species. Horn morphology is generally concordant with the Y-chromosome phylogeny. The mtDNA data also revealed two well-defined clades. However, the species in each clade are different from those inferred from the Y-chromosome data. To explain the discordance between Y-chromosome and mtDNA phylogenies, several hypotheses are considered. We suggest that a plausible scenario involves mtDNA introgression between ancestral taxa before the relatively recent colonization of Western Europe, the Caucasus Mountains, and East Africa by Capra populations.
Hybridization as an invasion of the genome
Trends in Ecology & Evolution
Hybridization as an invasion of the genome
Trends in Ecology & Evolution, Volume 20, Issue 5, May 2005, Pages 229-237
James Mallet
Abstract
Hybridization between species is commonplace in plants, but is often seen as unnatural and unusual in animals. Here, I survey studies of natural interspecific hybridization in plants and a variety of animals. At least 25% of plant species and 10% of animal species, mostly the youngest species, are involved in hybridization and potential introgression with other species. Species in nature are often incompletely isolated for millions of years after their formation. Therefore, much evolution of eventual reproductive isolation can occur while nascent species are in gene-flow contact, in sympatry or parapatry, long after divergence begins. Although the relative importance of geographic isolation and gene flow in the origin of species is still unknown, many key processes involved in speciation, such as ‘reinforcement’ of post-mating isolation by the evolution of assortative mating, will have ample opportunity to occur in the presence of continuing gene flow. Today, DNA sequence data and other molecular methods are beginning to show that limited invasions of the genome are widespread, with potentially important consequences in evolutionary biology, speciation, biodiversity, and conservation.
Detecting hybrid speciation in the presence of incomplete lineage sorting using gene tree incongruence: A model
Theoretical Population Biology, In Press, Corrected Proof, Available online 5 November 2008
Chen Meng, Laura Salter Kubatko
Abstract
The application of phylogenetic inference methods, to data for a set of independent genes sampled randomly throughout the genome, often results in substantial incongruence in the single-gene phylogenetic estimates. Among the processes known to produce discord between single-gene phylogenies, two of the best studied in a phylogenetic context are hybridization and incomplete lineage sorting. Much recent attention has focused on the development of methods for estimating species phylogenies in the presence of incomplete lineage sorting, but phylogenetic models that allow for hybridization have been more limited. Here we propose a model that allows incongruence in single-gene phylogenies to be due to both hybridization and incomplete lineage sorting, with the goal of determining the contribution of hybridization to observed gene tree incongruence in the presence of incomplete lineage sorting. Using our model, we propose methods for estimating the extent of the role of hybridization in both a likelihood and a Bayesian framework. The performance of our methods is examined using both simulated and empirical data.
Reconstructing reticulate evolutionary histories of plants
Trends in Plant Science, Volume 11, Issue 8, August 2006, Pages 398-404
Kim McBreen, Peter J. Lockhart
Abstract
Identifying signatures of hybridization in molecular data and distinguishing them from other causes of phylogenetic incongruence is important for evaluating the evolutionary significance of hybridization in plants. Consensus networks and supernetworks provide a means for doing this. In this review, we explain these methodologies, discuss their potential and illustrate their application with examples from the Brassicaceae.
A genomic view of introgression and hybrid speciation
Current Opinion in Genetics & Development, Volume 17, Issue 6, December 2007, Pages 513-518
Eric J Baack, Loren H Rieseberg
Abstract
Hybridization in plants and animals is more common and has more complex outcomes than previously realized. Genome-wide analyses of introgression in organisms ranging from oaks to sunflowers to fruit flies show that a substantial fraction of their genomes are permeable to alleles from related species. Hybridization can lead to rapid genomic changes, including chromosomal rearrangements, genome expansion, differential gene expression, and gene silencing, some of which are mediated by transposable elements. These genomic changes may lead to beneficial new phenotypes, and selection for fertility and ecological traits may in turn alter genome structure. Dramatic increases in the availability of genomic tools will produce a new understanding of the genetic nature of species and will resolve a century-old debate over the basis of hybrid vigor, while the natural recombinants found in hybrid zones will permit genetic mapping of species differences and reproductive barriers in nonmodel organisms.
Anne Ropiqueta, b and Alexandre HassaninCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, b, E-mail The Corresponding Author
aUMR 5202 – Origine, Structure et Evolution de la Biodiversité, Département Systématique et Evolution, Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle, Case postale No. 51, 55 rue Buffon, 75005 Paris, France
bService de Systématique Moléculaire, Muséum National d’Histoire Naturelle, 43 rue Cuvier, 75005 Paris, France
Received 19 January 2006;
revised 6 April 2006;
accepted 19 May 2006.
Available online 3 June 2006.
Abstract
Recent theories on speciation suggest that interspecific hybridization is an important mechanism for explaining adaptive radiation. According to this view, hybridization can promote the rapid transfer of adaptations between different species; the hybrid population thus invades new habitats and diversifies into a variety of new species. Although hybridization is well accepted as a fairly common mechanism for diversification in plants, its role in the evolution of animals is more controversial, because reduced fitness would typically condemn animal hybrids to an evolutionary dead-end. Here, we examine DNA sequences of four mitochondrial and four nuclear genes selected for resolving phylogenetic relationships between goats, sheep, and their allies. Our analyses provide evidence of strong discordance for the position of Capra between mitochondrial and nuclear phylogenies. We suggest that the common ancestor of wild goats arose from interspecific hybridization, and that the mitochondrial genome of a species better adapted to life at high altitudes was transferred via this route into the common ancestor of Capra. We propose that the acquisition of more efficient mitochondria has conferred a selective advantage on goats, allowing their rapid adaptive radiation during the Plio–Pleistocene epoch. Our study therefore agrees with theories that predict an important role for interspecific hybridization in the evolution and diversification of animal species.
Keywords: Hybridization; Introgression; Gene tree; Adaptation; Radiation; Capra; Pliocene
Article Outline
1. Introduction
2. Materials and methods
2.1. Taxonomic sample
2.2. DNA sequences
2.3. Phylogenetic analyses
2.4. Molecular dating
3. Results
3.1. Discordant positions for Capra between the mitochondrial and nuclear trees
3.2. Paralogy, incomplete lineage sorting, or interspecific hybridization?
4. Discussion
4.1. Ancient mtDNA introgression in the common ancestor of wild goats
4.2. Sex-biased gene flow from Hemitragus to Capra
4.3. Positive selection for mtDNA introgression
Acknowledgements
References
Fig. 1. Geographic (A) and altitudinal (B) distributions of Capra, Ammotragus, Arabitragus, Hemitragus, and Pseudois. All species of wild goats are indicated in the figure: from west to east, C. pyrenaica (Spanish ibex), C. ibex (Alpine ibex), C. nubiana (Nubian ibex), C. caucasica (West Caucasian tur), C. cylindricornis (East Caucasian tur), C. aegagrus (Bezoar goat), C. walie (Walia ibex), C. falconeri (Markhor), and C. sibirica (Siberian ibex).
|
In Anseriformes-too much I don't have a clue about. From conversations I've had with a few systematists, I suspect the Nene is the product of more than one Branta species and the Laysan Teal may have more than one founder ancestor.
A more compelling enigma is just conjecture and its the sort of conjecture that systematists are currently investigating.
It has to do with a brief moment in history when the entire globe seemed to stop spinning for a moment. I've mentioned it a half-dozen times here, an event known as the Mount Toba Supervolcano Event:
http://tobavolcano.googlepages.com/
The wetlands of the Bengal Watershed were effected dramatically, indeed the whole region was buried under several feet of volcanic ash.
Sunlight was blocked by a thick layer of volcanic ash, resulting in an intensive cold snap= a global cooling-- ice sheets grew thicker in coler latitudes and intense aridification - cold deserts - followed,
Some of the foothills run parallel with the Himalayas, leaving consequently , deep mountain valleys within the Himalayan foothills, protected by their topography and latitude- wind currents- etc- create a sanctuary that protect a few deep lakes. Within these lakes a few surviving flocks of waterfowl have taken shelter.
In this hypothetical model, the largest number of waterfowl are of two species. The behavioral ecology of one of the species gives them an advantage or perhaps more females of this species survive and are left stranded in this string of lakes. Because of the catastrophism choking the region, the founder flocks are not joined by new migrants and a genetic bottleneck is well underway. Predators are closing in and due to the surrounding landscapes appearance- the males of the first species are easier to see at night or while in flight than their females. Meanwhile, the second theoretical species's population is beginning to plummet. The second species is stranded in marginal habitat and its females fail to reproduce consistently.
The first species is a diving duck and the second a dabbling duck.
Because of the population dynamics on the lakes, dabbling duck males greatly outnumber the diving duck males and many hybrid progeny are produced. The fertility of the offspring is limited.
Only some small percentage of the male hybrids are capable of reproducing and, only when bred back to the maternal founder species.
Within a few generations of backcrossing, the matrilineal diving duck populations begin to expand. As the ecological consequences of the Toba eruption subside and an ecological equilibrium is once again reached, this refugia zone- this string of deep lakes in the Himalayan foothills become the centre of dispersal of a new species- unique to the region.
The new duck unique to the Bengal Watershed is impossible to see at night
The males have a new phenotype that differs markedly from their mother's ancestors:
Just a theory of course,
_________________
- Judge by cause, not by effect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frank
Premium Member 08
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 1056
Location: Quebec, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Intersting,
| Quote: | | In Anseriformes-too much I don't have a clue about. From conversations I've had with a few systematists, I suspect the Nene is the product of more than one Branta species and the Laysan Teal may have more than one founder ancestor. |
I don't know for the Laysan Teal, but of all what I've readed from the Nene, their ancester is the Canada Goose and when looking at their pattern, this is making a lot of sense to me, except if there's a species of Branta I never heard of, but when looking at it, I don't see any traits of Red-Breasted, Brant and Barnacle Goose, only Canada (or Cackling) Goose traits. My idea would be that there was a small group of Canada (or Cackling) Geese who landed in Hawaii and stayed there for X reasons and they evolved on their own way. I have an idea about the genus Branta and need to get more information, but what I just writhe here is my idea and what I've readed too.
However, if I understand well your point, you are more talking about the Anatinaes ("true" ducks) than the Anatidaes (ducks, swans, geese) if we consider you are talking about two species of ducks at the "beginning" right?
There are some populations of birds I think will finally become exctinct due to hybridization, mostly with the Malard. Here, there's the American Black Duck. It's quite often to see a Malard x Black Duck hybrid by here, I don't know in other parts of North America though.
When my grandfather was still a young kid, he told me when he first shot a Malard. He was with his brother and bring it to his father who was my great grandfather. At that time, it was the first specimen observe by those nature men who were living along with nature in many ways and also good hunting men. My great grandfather first thought it was an escaped duck from a private collection or something (it was a female if I remember well).
Many years passed and the population of Malard was growing up. Today, except if you go in a really wild place where almost no human are disturbing the habitat, you won't see any Malard but mostly Black Duck. But what is sad is that those wild places are slowly diseappearing. People are building cottages around every lakes. Black Ducks are shy ducks compared to Malard so that's the first good reason for them to don't nest where humans live. People, thinking they are doing nothing wrong, are also feeding those Malards, so they have an advantage when in close contact with humans to don't be shy birds, they get food. Also, many people (don't respect nature by) getting a full green lawn where the Black Ducks seems to be "not at there place" while the female Malards are taking it easy there with a large view to see predators before to get attack.
So basically, the phenomenon happening here is that the Malard is "stealing" the Black Duck habitat and also breed with them. I can't guarantee how true it is, but I've heard many times females Black Duck prefer to breed with a Malard drake instead of a Black Duck drake, but I don't have any trustable references.
There's a lot of problem because of humans in the wildlife and the laws should be more strict, cause the best legacy we can give to the next generations is a clean and natural world.
What's the situation of the American Black Duck in the other provinces of Canada? How about the American states?
Thanks
Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kingfisher
New Contributor
Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Europe
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Concerning the bird in the beginning of this thread, it is just an intersex Mallard-no other species involved there!!!
See more intersex mallards here:
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/_D3A2375_web.jpg
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/673_7319_web.jpg
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/673_7355_web.jpg
http://users.utu.fi/hlehto/photo/platy/672_7297_web.jpg
An Intersex being a bird of one sex expressing traits of the other sex; in mallards this seem to be very often females expressing male traits.
The head pattern of many mallard intersexes often closely resembles head patterns that occur in Hybrids of Mallard x closely related ducks:
Hybrids Mallard x Mexican duck
hybrids Mallard x north american black duck
hybrids mallard x Mottled duck
hybrids Mallard x hawaiian duck
can all show this head pattern . But then also other traits of these species plumage should be visible. so it cannot be any of these crosses.
mallard x Gadwall can show a superficially similar head pattern , But:
The duck initially posted does not show any other traits hintig with even a slight possibility to a Mallard x Gadwall hybrid--- and this should even be the case if this is a backcross of a hybrid to mallard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Earl Tappenden
Premium Member 09
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Coldwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: Hybrid |
|
|
I agree with Kingfisher. I first thought Gadwall but the eyestripe and the bill color tell me different. The bill color is typical Mallard hen and the eyestripe also. The sides are a blend. If it was a hybrid, most likely the bill would be a solid color. Most males don't have spots on the bill. I had a hen Gray Call get bitten in the back by a Beagle and after she recovered she develped a curl in her tail and green on the head and spots of chestnut on her breast and never laid another egg. It could be from an injury or just born that way. It is still quite interesting. Earl
_________________
Earl Tappenden |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
