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Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck

 
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vowersweims
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Location: Kimball, Nebraska

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

Here are some pictures of melanistic mutants and a "Black Ringneck". From what I can tell the mutants are larger and lack markings on the body. Any comments? And what is the difference between a green melanistic and a black melanistic?

"Black Ringneck"

[img][/img]

Melanistic Mutant

[img][/img]

Melanistic Mutant

[img][/img]
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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are all Melanistic Mutants......
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

I read somewhere that when a ringneck is crossed with a melanistic, the offspring will be 50/50. Either they will be ringneck or melanistic because the melanistic strain is a stable "strain".

I never have crossed the two, nor do I plan on it, but if someone were to keep crossing the hybrid offspring onto ringnecks, do you suppose the offspring would eventually turn out like the top picture (smaller body and body markings)? Or would this happen from the first cross?

I got the "black Ringnecks" as eggs from a guy in Michigan because the picture of the bird looked "pretty", and dont get me wrong they are nice looking. I am just perplexed because in his add he said somthing to the effect of: I recently found a breeder of black ringnecks, I thought these were all gone.

And what is the deal with people selling Green Melanistic Mutants and Black Melanistic Mutants? What's the difference?
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Carl
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are all the same species - phasianus colchicus - so crossing any of them is not hybridisation, it is merely crossing of strains/mutants.
None of the birds are trully melanistic, but are partial melanistic mutants. Normally the name/description melanistic is used for totally melanistic mutants where the entire plummage is heavily pigmented with melanin and/or one of the related black/dark brown pigments - at a distance the bird would look completely black-feathered.
The irridescence colour - blue, green, violet etc., are not a consequence of any pigment - they are the result of the particular microscopic structure of the feathers, in an exactly similar way to the effect of a thin film of oil on water. This is very obvious if a feather is held up to the light and its colour is seen through the feather (by transmission), rather than by refection - the colour is very dark brown.
Both the extent of melanism and the particular micro-structure that gives the irridescence will individually be subject to control by at least one, and almost certainly several, genetic factors. What the resulting off-spring of any cross will look like will be dependant upon the inter-play of all of these factors, and is very likely to be complex. The same comments apply to the inheritance of the ring around the neck too.
Body-size will tend to diminish in highly-inbred strains, but large body-size can be selected for, particularly if there is a large enough founder stock, but fertility may then drop - as with most jumbo strains of quail.
If the two strains are not closley related (and the fact that they do not look similar is absolutely no guaratee that they aren't), crossing them MAY produce a bird that gains from what is often called hybrid vigor. In this case the resultant would not be a hybrid, but the idea of vigor could apply exactly in the same sense as when applied to seeds - F1, F2 seeds are not trully hybrids, they are the result of crossing very unrelated strains of the same vegetable or whatever (and hence do not produce true-to-type seeds themselves - to get true-to-type you need to continually make the same unrelated cross - which is why F1, F2 seeds are expensive).
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

That is very interesting.

Thank you very much.

Scott
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spectrumranch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion-

I would say the first bird is a cross between a DOMESTIC Green Mutant and a Black Melanistic Mutant; because of the tan speckling in the breast feathers and the tan lacing feathers on the back.

The second photo looks like a Black Ringneck and the third like a Melanistic Mutant. The second and third photo maybe of the same bird, but the reason I lean to say the second photo is a Black Ringneck is because the bird looks smaller than the third. The third looks like a larger bird, but it may just be the angles, relative distance of the photos, unable to see tails.

It seems that "these dark colored" ringnecks are called by different names from one end of the USA to the other. I grew up with them being called Green mutants or green ringnecks and Black Melanistic Mutants or Melanistic Ringnecks and some as Black ringnecks.

This is what I grew up knowing as a "Green Ringneck", which is a domestic color mutation NOT the wild verison of a Green.

It has lacing on the back and a green colored back, the breast/sides are green with a purplish tint.

As for the Melanistic Mutants and Black Ringnecks- they are quite similar, but I do beleive they are different or at least different strains/bloodlines/variety (whatever you want to call it). While they are both dark/black based birds with a iridescent green & blue tint---- To me the Melanisitic are a larger more domestic bird that is a slower flyer than a Black Ringneck which is a smaller flightier bird. It also seems that the Blacks have more iridescence in the tail.


As for the hens- A domestic green ringneck hen is dark brown with lighter brown markings and some iridescent tint. I dont have a good photo of a green hen but there is one in the background with this Black male:


A Black Ringneck hen is much darker to black with a more purple iridscent tint:


There are ALOT of birds that are inbetween, these may or maynot have a white neck ring, which are the result of crossing them back and fourth or mixing with regular ringnecks.

Just My Opinion- Randy www.spectrumranch.net

We have 20 different colors/breeds/varieties of "domestic ringneck mutations"
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

So:

They are all melanistic mutants.

The amount of melanin causes the dark appearance, and feather structure reflects different colors (green, purple,ect). Which can be altered by the cross of different birds.

The cross of these different birds, and geographic location of the breeders then adds to the different color variations, and also names.

But they are all melanistic mutants.


Does anyone know when and where this mutation first happened?

I never really cared much for raising different color variations. Is there any standard by which my melanistic mutants should adhere to, or is that a stupid question and a matter of personal opinion?
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Carl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The particular forms of mutant will have been raised and to some extent fixed by someone, somewhere, fairly recently - someone here may remember, but if not, the history might be tracable through something like The Gazette.
Dark mutants have almost certainly occurred way, way back in history. In the UK basically no-one except farms raising birds for release keeps the species and no-one keeps any mutants - the names that are used in the US are completely unknown here - but odd-ball colours appear regularly. But this is what you'd expect in the 25 million that are reared and released each year here in the UK, especially when they are mostly an incredible mix of sub-species that have been introduced over hundreds of years from all over the world. Wth far more being raised each year in the US, mutations of one formn or another are going to occur regularly.
In the UK they are ignored - no-one is in anyway interested.

There is also the possibility that some of the mutants are not mutants at all, in the normal sense at least - there are dark/very dark sub-species etc. that occur entirely naturally in some parts of the world and the genes from these birds may be responsible.
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

I found this very shocking.

A pheasant breeder in the UK that is crossing southern versicolor's for hunting. Plus they have Melanistics.



www.hy-fly.co.uk[url]
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

www.hy-fly.co.uk/pheasant.htm [/url]
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

I am sure I read somewhere that melanistic mutants first occured in europe from released birds, and that they have a better time surviving in their european coverts do to the enviroment there as opposed to the USA.

I was curious when these would have mutated, and what they looked/look like.

Thank you

This is all very informative and interesting to me
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johnbonser
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott i have tried replying to you by e mail no luck sent pictures of my True Pheasants.And also the pen dimensions i have for my pheasants,everything sent back to me.Give me a call if you get chance John
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Carl
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever anyone may think about what game pheasants are bred and produced in the UK, you have to remember that 99.999999% of any interest at all in the species stems from game shooting. As I have said, there are something over 25 million released here each year and I doubt that the number produced in private aviaries, not for release, but purely as ornament, exceeds 50, perhaps far less.
You should also remember that the game pheasant is NOT native to the UK - the first introductions were probably made by the Romans - around 2000 years ago - and there have been introductions from all over the world since then. If you get away from land that is not used for large scale releases for shooting, it is difficult to find 2 birds that look even similar, leave alone identical.
Unlike in the US, eating game here is a very rare thing - the HUGE majority of people would run a mile at the thought, which means that there is very little farming of game purely for the table. Even then, we have tight game seasons that cannot and do not distinguish betwen shot and farmed, so even farmed birds can be sold only during the shooting season.
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vowersweims
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:45 am    Post subject: Melanistic Mutant vs Black Ringneck Reply with quote

Carl

I have only been to the UK twice so far in my short life, and at that time did not care as much for birds. I hope in the near future to visit again with my new eyes. I really loved it there.

If at anytime you could come to the states I would be grateful for a visit, that you could see my megar flock. And if you hunt I would surely accomodate your wishes.

I suppose the reason I love the ringnecks is due to their introducing me to the vast array of other pheasants and birds in the world. I think many people are like me in that the mongrel ringneck has been a gateway to somthing very special.

Thank you, it is always great to hear the views of people in other countries.

Scott
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Carl
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for your kind invitation Scott - if youy make it back this siode of the water, ask John for directions on how to find me.

I can find something to marvel at in most of what nature (or God if you prefer), has provided on the planet, although my particular likings for pheasants in general are very restricted. On top of that, what I keep I aim to breed - the challenge of doing so is 99% of the reason that I keep any bird, and the species has to "fit" the current facilities, or to some minor modification of them. If I bred them, I must be able to sell what I breed, even if that means hatching just 4 eggs a year and throwing another 50 fertile ones over the hedge at the bottom of the garden. With ring-necks I would struggle to sell any, ever. To illustrate how small the market for many species is - I like Sonnerat's junglefowl and bought 2 pair around 5-6 years ago. I bred something like 10-12 in the first year (plus I threw eggs away). I sold none in 2 years and then one person (for reasons completely unknown to me) wanted to buy several pairs from all over the UK - he bought all my birds - the one sale in 3 years.
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